Interview with Orlando Chirinos (UNT National Coordinator) - "The Hands Off Venezuela Campaign is an extraordinary initiative"

During the workshop on "Workers' participation in the management of companies" at the 3rd International Gathering in Solidarity with the Bolivarian Revolution, which took place in Valencia (Carabobo state), Alan Woods interviewed Orlando Chirinos, National Coordinator of the Venezuelan trade union confederation, UNT (National Workers Union).

Alan Woods: In a very short space of time the UNT has become the most important trade union confederation in Venezuela, completely pushing the old bureaucratic CTV to one side. How many members do you have right now?

Orlando Chirinos: There are some 600,000 members, though I do not have the latest figures and we are still growing. In any case, this figure does not give a precise picture of the strength of the UNT within the Venezuelan working class. There are millions of workers who think they are part of the UNT, though they are not formally registered as such.

Alan Woods, Orlando Chirinos and Ricardo Galindez

AW: And the CTV?

OCh: We have documents that show that the CTV does not even have 300,000 members right now. In an attempt to justify their collapse they say that President Chavez has smashed them. But this is not the case. They are the victims of their own behaviour and their inability to represent the interests of the working class.

AW: Some of their leaders even supported the coup three years ago.

OCh: That is true. What we have to realise is that in Venezuela there is a process of change and this has its reflection in the trade union movement. There is a real trade union revolution, a revolution from below, and the clearest expression of this is the UNT. Here is a significant fact: here in Carabobo [one of the main industrial and workers' centres of the country] there were 27 referenda on collective bargaining agreements, and the UNT won 22 of them.

AW: However, the CTV still has a certain base. How do you explain that?

OCh: They count above all on the support of the CIOSL [ICFTU]. They receive funds from the US. The imperialists, who are continually harassing the Venezuelan revolution, want at all costs and by any means necessary to stop the UNT. This explains their support for the CTV, despite the demonstrable fact that they no longer represent the working class of this country.

AW: Obviously. There is an incredible international campaign to isolate and harass the Venezuelan revolution. We know that there are strong pressures in the US trade unions and also the right wing of the European trade unions to deny international recognition of the UNT. Through the "Hands off Venezuela" Campaign we are doing all we can to explain the real situation to the labour and trade union movement in Britain and throughout Europe. The main problem is the lack of information. Once European trade unionists have real and truthful information, the reception is very good.

OCh: This is very important. The UNT is an internationalist organisation. The working class is a world class. We should not be limited by narrow national horizons. Our motto is, "Workers of the world, unite!"

AW: We are in the workshop about workers' co-management. I personally prefer to talk about workers' control. What do you think?

OCh: Our strategic struggle is not co-management. At this particular time we are passing through this phase. But we must put into question capitalist production relationships and advance towards socialism. There are concrete facts: for instance the nationalisation of Venepal (now Invepal) and tomorrow there will also be the nationalisation of the Constructora Nacional de Valvulas (CNV). There are elements of workers' control like we see in ALCASA (in Bolivar state), where the process has gone further.

AW: Finally, what do you think of the "Hands Off Venezuela" Campaign"?

OCh: The "Hands Off Venezuela" campaign is an extraordinary initiative. It is the only significant campaign that is taking place internationally. Unfortunately, until now we have not paid enough attention to this campaign, but its support has been very valuable to us. The truth is that no one else has done what you have done. I consider the links between the UNT and the "Hands Off Venezuela" Campaign very important. I promise to raise this question at the next meeting of the National Coordination [National Executive Committee]. You can rest assured that we will continue to deepen the relationship with the Campaign.

During the workshop on "Workers' participation in the management of companies" at the 3rd International Gathering in Solidarity with the Bolivarian Revolution, which took place in Valencia (Carabobo state), Alan Woods interviewed Orlando Chirinos, National Coordinator of the Venezuelan trade union confederation, UNT (National Workers Union).

Alan Woods: In a very short space of time the UNT has become the most important trade union confederation in Venezuela, completely pushing the old bureaucratic CTV to one side. How many members do you have right now?

Orlando Chirinos: There are some 600,000 members, though I do not have the latest figures and we are still growing. In any case, this figure does not give a precise picture of the strength of the UNT within the Venezuelan working class. There are millions of workers who think they are part of the UNT, though they are not formally registered as such.

Alan Woods, Orlando Chirinos and Ricardo Galindez

AW: And the CTV?

OCh: We have documents that show that the CTV does not even have 300,000 members right now. In an attempt to justify their collapse they say that President Chavez has smashed them. But this is not the case. They are the victims of their own behaviour and their inability to represent the interests of the working class.

AW: Some of their leaders even supported the coup three years ago.

OCh: That is true. What we have to realise is that in Venezuela there is a process of change and this has its reflection in the trade union movement. There is a real trade union revolution, a revolution from below, and the clearest expression of this is the UNT. Here is a significant fact: here in Carabobo [one of the main industrial and workers' centres of the country] there were 27 referenda on collective bargaining agreements, and the UNT won 22 of them.

AW: However, the CTV still has a certain base. How do you explain that?

OCh: They count above all on the support of the CIOSL [ICFTU]. They receive funds from the US. The imperialists, who are continually harassing the Venezuelan revolution, want at all costs and by any means necessary to stop the UNT. This explains their support for the CTV, despite the demonstrable fact that they no longer represent the working class of this country.

AW: Obviously. There is an incredible international campaign to isolate and harass the Venezuelan revolution. We know that there are strong pressures in the US trade unions and also the right wing of the European trade unions to deny international recognition of the UNT. Through the "Hands off Venezuela" Campaign we are doing all we can to explain the real situation to the labour and trade union movement in Britain and throughout Europe. The main problem is the lack of information. Once European trade unionists have real and truthful information, the reception is very good.

OCh: This is very important. The UNT is an internationalist organisation. The working class is a world class. We should not be limited by narrow national horizons. Our motto is, "Workers of the world, unite!"

AW: We are in the workshop about workers' co-management. I personally prefer to talk about workers' control. What do you think?

OCh: Our strategic struggle is not co-management. At this particular time we are passing through this phase. But we must put into question capitalist production relationships and advance towards socialism. There are concrete facts: for instance the nationalisation of Venepal (now Invepal) and tomorrow there will also be the nationalisation of the Constructora Nacional de Valvulas (CNV). There are elements of workers' control like we see in ALCASA (in Bolivar state), where the process has gone further.

AW: Finally, what do you think of the "Hands Off Venezuela" Campaign"?

OCh: The "Hands Off Venezuela" campaign is an extraordinary initiative. It is the only significant campaign that is taking place internationally. Unfortunately, until now we have not paid enough attention to this campaign, but its support has been very valuable to us. The truth is that no one else has done what you have done. I consider the links between the UNT and the "Hands Off Venezuela" Campaign very important. I promise to raise this question at the next meeting of the National Coordination [National Executive Committee]. You can rest assured that we will continue to deepen the relationship with the Campaign.